text by Brendan Casey
photos by Johnny Galvan
It is always a bit of a drag to play in the first hour of a festival. People are more worried about breakfast than set times and that’s if they’ve even managed to crack their eyes open yet. Fortunately for Trupa Trupa, hailing from Gdansk; Poland, they were able to kick things off right with a solidly energetic set to open the second day of Desert Daze. Bringing sharp post punk hooks anchored by psychedelic undertones, the band began with a handful of stragglers. However, by the time they closed out their early slot, a solid crowd was cheering them on. We got to sit down with Grzegorz Kwiatkowski of the group afterwards and cover a whole array of topics, among them: What makes American’s American, what are the dark and bright sides of the soul, what makes Poland a psychedelic country, and what it’s like to literally stumble over holocaust history?
Brendan: So do you feel like there were precursors to this kind of music before you in Gdansk or do you feel like your band was the first one to get this sound?
Grzegorz: We are not into competition, for sure…
B: Not in a competition sense, just in terms of were there other bands who wanted to do this kind of Post-Punk sound from Gdansk?
G: I don’t think so. We are this kind of band that is not in music society. We are kind of a little embassy or a strange creature, so we are outside, a bit isolated. But we really like these kind of isolated vibes.
B: It’s a post punk band, you got to be isolated and cold right?
G: We need to feel this kind of existentialism, yes (laughing)
B: Do you find with the bands you play with in Poland, does it all make sense? Do you feel like there’s now more of a post punk sound going on in your city among groups?
G: Generally speaking, in Poland there is a great music scene, great underground, a lot of friends in the scene but there is no similarity in the style between us and the other bands. But I don’t know who is better because it’s not a competition of course but I think in Poland there is not a lot of audience to understand the post punk scene and the post rock scene. For example, when we tour in Western Europe or the US we have a bigger audience than in Poland because this country was totally devastated by history, by Second World War, by First World War, Communism Time. It’s like one big disaster area but I think that now it’s getting better and better and I think that we can do something with this very bad experience and speak about it in the music.
B: Now you’ve been to the US twice, three times?
G: We were in South By Southwest 2018 and 2019 and did the festivals. Then we signed with Tom Windish and Paradigm Talent Agency and this is our first US tour. So we played in Washington D.C. and New York and now California for a few shows.
B: How does the United States, like the reality of the place, compare to what you thought it would be before you came here?
G: It’s a really great question because I’m a rather left-wing person so I don’t like a lot of stuff from the US….
B: What kind of stuff, politics?
G: Of course politics but a lot of people from the US always saying things like they are the most important country in the world. And they are ruling the whole world. It’s frustrating, irritating. But on the other hand when I’m here and I see this big nature and everything is so big, I get it. I don’t accept it but I understand and process it. I can see some evil stuff… Of course, I’m not saying that the US is all evil. I don’t want to criticize….
B: I mean, there’s plenty to criticize in the US. We’re such a consumer society. And we’re told by everything and everyone within the country that we are “The Best” so we just believe it.
G: You are a very nationalistic country and people don’t get it. It’s a very nationalist country. I’m not a nationalist in anyway but on the other hand you’ve got, as a country, really great stuff, you know, Fugazi and all that. This country gave the world a lot of super great stuff and I accept, I appreciate, I’m a fan, so my feelings are complicated but they are still positive.
B: In terms of the people, has that been kind of what you thought you’d get in terms of the attitudes?
G: Earlier I thought you were all non-stop acting, in a way, that kind of…the self assured attitude. Now I think in some way, not in some way but you are children of farmers, you know, that whole generation that made this country… which was also built on the genocide of natives.
B: Which we don’t talk about, or if we do, it’s a political left wing point and not just objective history.
G: I would talk about it everyday, I’m telling you. But I can see now, I think that American people are different from other people. It’s because of the landscape, because of your history, because… please don’t be mad but in some ways you are more primitive, you know what I mean? I don’t want to say something bad, you’re more self assured, more primitive, more into power, more into charging, into taking. And with Europeans, especially Western Europeans, especially after the second World War, we come from a totally different state, from a different philosophical way or theological way. You are a new country, you are kids. Europe was the kids, now we are adults, now we are old.
B: And for one generation in Europe, they’re gonna have a completely different experience from earlier generations that were knocked down and are now back on their feet.
G: Or at least up on their knees. But these kinds of festivals and these kind of conversations are giving me some hope in the way that maybe our generation will not have it so bad.
B: Now, the mayor of Gdansk where you’re from had been assassinated in January, stabbed on a stage. Obviously there’s right wing movements rising up around the world but there’s a lot in Europe and Poland’s got a big white nationalist movement going on there now. Do you feel like the music scene and the creative scene is reacting to that? Like, “We have to get more organized ourselves to combat this?” Or do you feel like it’s more of a scared wave of what the fuck is going on?
G: We dedicated our SXSW gigs to Pawel Adamowicz, we knew him, his cultural department was helping us in a very big way. He cared about culture in a general way and so we did it as an act of ‘Stop the Violence’ and as a gesture but we are not into politics in the way that we can say, ‘Yeah, he was a great politician,’ you know what I mean? We really don’t believe politics, we are afraid of politics, so we care, of course, but we can’t say ‘Yeah, vote for him,’ you know, because most of them are cheaters, thieves, especially in Poland. So, yes, in Poland, almost the whole of Europe really, and the United States, there is a big spreading of right wing movements and it’s frightening. I think in the past, people would…. of course, everyone has a dark side and bright side of the soul, but in the past they were fighting with this dark side and now they are proud of this dark side and I’m in shock that someone is proud that he is anti-semetic or someone is proud that he is racist or that he hates women. You know, earlier he was maybe like that but he knew it was dark. But now…
B: It’s shocking for a lot of our generation. If you’re a halfway decent person and see all this shit happening, it’s hard to understand. And in the States, there’s things with Trump where you’re just think “Can’t you see this guy’s such a clown?” and it took a lot of the wind out of my sails. “Are there people that are just fine with this?” And the answer is unfortunately, yes, there are millions.
G: And unfortunately, earlier I thought that Trump was only a clown, just one person. Now I think he’s a zeitgeist, he’s a spirit of the time and I think that millions of people are like that and in some ways he gave them a green light, you know, come on, don’t be ashamed of who you are and he in some ways stopped the educational process, because you know we are humans beings, we are the biggest killer in the history of the whole of nature and of course we have these evil abilities, we get it from the past when were are hunters so it’s obvious. But the whole cultural process was to change yourself and now it stopped. It’s like, “No, we would love to pretend that we are better than we are,” something like that. It’s very bad. I’m really shocked because I’ve got a good many friends in Poland, not all of them, but I’m talking with people and I think that I know them and sometimes they say they are anti-semetic or homophobic and they are not ashamed. And I’m shocked. I think that the most important process is that we shouldn’t fight with these people. We should make a protest of course, but we shouldn’t humiliate them, we shouldn’t say fuck you, fuck you, we shouldn’t use the same instrument because if we use the evil instruments, we are the same.
B: I kept seeing when Trump was elected “Make Racists Afraid Again” and for me at least, I think, yes, but I also want to make them less racist than they were before. Because if they’re just afraid, they’re hiding and as soon as they can come out of hiding, they’re still just as fucking racist. And granted not everyone’s gonna change, a neo-nazi isn’t gonna change into a socialist over night but each little thing we can sway, we should sway right?
G: Totally, I’m on the same page.
B: Now with Trupa Trupa, I wouldn’t say psychedelic is the first word I’d use to describe your music but there’s psychedelic elements in it for sure.
G: Once more, I’m on the same page, it’s not a normal psychedelic band.
B: But there are sounds and elements of it that are psychedelic. What do you think is psychedelic in Poland? Not just trees or settings and such. What do you find trippy or surreal about Poland as a nation?
G: Generally speaking, Poland is a very psychedelic country in that way that we are lunatics, you know what I mean? We are so devastated by history that…. For example, the biggest national event in Poland is the Warsaw Uprising. It was during the war, and during this uprising, we lost it and a few hundred thousand people were murdered and the whole capital was lost. So in Poland this is the biggest victory. The biggest failure is the biggest victory and people go in the streets and they are lunatics, it’s madness.
B: Do you get the White Nights in Poland? I was in St. Petersburg during the White Nights, where it’s just sunshine for two weeks and always thought that must have made people go a bit crazy.
G: We don’t have it as much where we are on the equator but it’s great you’re talking about Russia because I think of all the countries influenced by Russia, Poland is the biggest one. They are totally fucked up from it. I’ll give you an example. In 2015, we were in Los Angeles Times, ‘One of the best new bands in rock music ‘Trupa Trupa.’’ So we read it, “Oh man, crazy stuff!” But many people from Poland don’t like this kind of statement because in this kind of country, we should be humble, we should be quiet, we shouldn’t say I’m proud of myself. And they were right because after this statement, people said, ”Yeah of course, they bought this review.” So Post-Soviet people are very afraid, it’s like from Kafka’s novels. They are “Don’t be too tall! Don’t be too…”
B: “Stay in a box, don’t stick out…”
G: For example, I’m also a poet and some in the community, they don’t like me, not that all people don’t like me but I would say that most of the people don’t like me. In the way that I’m a fucking clown, I’m not humble, I do whatever I want to do. And if I said, for example, with a big festival like this one, “Yeah, we’ll play there after two years because we’re working hard,” well, people just hate it and of course I don’t blame them, I totally understand them, I’m not fighting with them, I’m not better than them. My own kind of psychology was because of literature, because of Dostoevsky, Kafka. They changed me in the way that I’m not afraid anymore, I’m free. That’s all. So if someone says to me. You’re a little mother fucker and your band is nothing and your reviews are tripe, I just say, “Thank you” and that’s that. They really want to fight and they are mad so if you say to them, “Alright, I love you,” then they can’t win.
B: Have you toured Russia much?
G: No, never ever. We would love to. We love Russian culture. Dostoevsky, Tarkovsky, Rublev
You know Trupa Trupa is a strange band in the way that two of us graduated from fine arts, and one is a painter and one is a graphic designer. I’m a poet, another is making reportage from the middle east and working for GreenPeace. So we are not a normal regular band who wants to make success, make an audience, some message. I think that actually that’s working on our side in the way that we got a democracy system in the band and I really don’t know any band with a democracy system. There is always a leader.
B: So with this democractic voting system, everything has to pass by vote?
G: In a way. It’s very hard
B: Do you find that you are agreeing from the start anyway or does that ‘democracy’ get tested a lot?
G: Arguments, discussions, someone is angry, it’s very hard. Democracy lessons are the most hard lessons because you have to be open to someone even if you don’t want. Even if you don’t feel it, you have to do it because these are the rules. They help a lot because when journalists are writing about our music, they find different stuff in every song and it’s because of that democracy and because every one of us has a bit of different taste, that’s inside of it. There’s not one leader who says “Oh no no, not here, not this, this will be here and fuck you.” But of course, everyone is pushing in his way. It’s sometimes a game, not conscious of course, but we are not angels. And I think that really, and I don’t want to say good things about myself but I think in some way we are unique because we try to be human beings, not show business stars or something like that. So I think if we wouldn’t have any audience, any festivals, any great labels and just be once more in our city and play, we wouldn’t break up. We would just keep doing it and I think that’s good.
B: Is there any instrument that you wish you could play that you don’t know now?
G: When I was a kid I was in music school playing clarinet and saxophone but generally speaking, I’m not loving instruments in the way that. Glenn Gould said it, and I’m not comparing myself to Glenn Gould, but the point is not the piano, the point is not the keys but what he wants it to do. It’s just an aperture, a medium, so I’m playing the guitar but I guess I could be playing on anything. Your spirit can find the way in everything. If you’re working hard, you’re open for good energy… also bad energy, like a Francis Bacon. So I think you could be a painter, a politician, in a good way I hope, a musician… for example, Ian McKaye is a kind of a politician, you know what I mean? But he’s a great guitarist and I’m sure he would be a great painter because his energy is so strong that he would do it.
B: You have some songs that are in Polish right?
G: Many years ago, a few.
B: Do you feel like you write differently in English or Polish?
G: English is not my first language but I have a knowledge about English poetry because I love Walt Whitman, Larkin, Eliot. I think that my lyrics are very minimalistic, they are all like a… childish way to be and I was a bit afraid of that at first but I thought, yeah this is it. And now in the reviews people say the lyrics are great, it means this and that, but I think, “You’re seeing a different thing!” So we found some methods to use English language as a non-English people but in a very good way.
B: Are you reading anything right now?
G: Now I’m reading two books. The first is about King Ludwig the Mad King, the Wagner financial protector, Ludvig Bavarian. His biography and the second book is a documentary book about Auschwitz processes because my family, my grandfather and his sister, they were prisoners of concentration camps. And actually this is a crazy story, me and my friend from the band, we found almost half a million pairs of shoes of prisoners and Jews from all death camps from Europe. We found them in the forest three years ago.
B: What! No shit!
G: No shit. It’s at Stutthof concentration camp, near Gdansk. In ‘45, the Red Army came and there was a half million, a mountain of shoes also from Auschewitz, Birkenau because it was a reparations center of shoes because Germans always did something with the leftover product. We went to the forest outside the museum and we thought there are leaves on the ground but they are shoes so we started to dig in the ground and find thousands of them, children’s shoes, colorful shoes, so we went to the manager of the museum and said, “Hey man, you got something here” and he said this is trash.” So me and my friend he is fighting this situation with this guy for three years but Daily Telegraph talked about it, CBC made a reportage, so it’s a big thing. Now this manager, he took the shoes, he secured them, a half million and he said “I will bury them once more but on the area of the museum.” I said, “Well, the fact is they should be visible, it’s an artifact of the holocaust.” So Trupa Trupa is very, let’s say, lucky to unlucky stuff and I think this is the point. We are making many things by an accident or we see some bad stuff and we try to reproduce it, you know, make something from it.
B: Do you think more accidents happen to Trupa Trupa than most bands? Or do you just know how to work with them when they happen?
G: I think we are….I’m very obsessive of it. For example, my poetry is mainly about genocide, I have kind of a detector, for example I have a second house, a cottage, sixty miles from my house in Gdansk and by an accident, a few years ago, I found an assistant of Dr. Mengele, a real person. There are not many assistants of Dr. Mengele. He was a prisoner, of course, he wasn’t a voluntary person. But I think I’ve got an intuition, because my grandfather was in a concentration camp and when I was a child I was going with him to it, so I’m used to this. For me, it’s a kind of normal. Genetic memory is a proven one so I think I’ve got this kind of intuition but the other thing is that I’m not afraid of accidents and if there are accidents happening, I can control it. I can use it. I’m not afraid.